{"id":1236,"date":"2026-07-10T17:11:58","date_gmt":"2026-07-10T17:11:58","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/commercialrelocationpros.com\/?p=1236"},"modified":"2026-07-10T17:11:58","modified_gmt":"2026-07-10T17:11:58","slug":"the-hidden-cost-of-optimizing-everything","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/commercialrelocationpros.com\/?p=1236","title":{"rendered":"The Hidden Cost of Optimizing Everything"},"content":{"rendered":"
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Subscribe here: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube <\/em><\/p>\n

Modern life is built to make things easier, faster, and more efficient. But what if, in smoothing away life\u2019s everyday frictions, we\u2019ve also lost something essential? This week on Galaxy Brain<\/em>, Charlie Warzel talks with The Atlantic<\/em>\u2019s Ian Bogost about his new book, The Small Stuff: How to Lead a More Gratifying Life<\/em>, and why the tiny rituals, sensory pleasures, and routine interactions we tend to overlook may be the very things that make us feel connected\u2014to one another, to the world around us, and to ourselves.<\/p>\n

Read more Why Are America\u2019s Generals So Cautious?<\/a><\/p>\n

The following is a transcript of the episode:<\/em><\/p>\n

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Ian Bogost:<\/strong> So think about this in, like, really simple terms: You\u2019re cooking dinner. Your goal is to produce a dinner. But the experience of cooking\u2014of hearing the sizzling onions in the pan, or of chopping up the vegetables, or of opening and closing the refrigerator and feeling the gasket as you do so\u2014all of that stuff, which is really gratifying, that\u2019s the experience of cooking. And it doesn\u2019t make sense to think about it in terms of goals and outcomes that you can optimize.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<\/div>\n

[Music<\/em>]<\/strong><\/p>\n

Charlie Warzel:<\/strong> I\u2019m Charlie Warzel, and this is Galaxy Brain<\/em>, a show where today we\u2019re going to sweat the small stuff.<\/p>\n

There\u2019s this line from the author Kurt Vonnegut that I love. It\u2019s from a 1995 interview in Inc.<\/em> magazine where Vonnegut recounts, just as personal computing is really taking off, his love for doing things in a more analog way.<\/p>\n

There\u2019s this one trip to the post office he talks about: heading to the newsstand, waiting in line, making small talk with the shopkeeper. The satisfaction of sealing the envelope and bringing it to the woman he has a crush on behind the counter. He ends the anecdote with the following: \u201cI stamp the envelope and mail it in a mailbox in front of the post office, and I go home. And I\u2019ve had a hell of a good time. And I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don\u2019t let anybody tell you any different.\u201d<\/p>\n

That quote has been banging around in my head over the last few years, as the world continues to embrace the kind of technological progress that sands down the edges of our lives and keeps our faces in our screens. There\u2019s Amazon, Doordash, parking-lot pickup, which can be genuine godsends for people. But it\u2019s a convenience that also comes with a trade-off of not having to live in the world, among other people in the same way that we used to. In terms of farting around, our devices offer endless, engrossing distraction from the physical world. In part, our technologies have created this world where everything can be quantified. This has birthed this optimization culture and a broader obsession with metrics and efficiency.<\/p>\n

My guest today argues that, while not all of this is bad, it can come at a genuine cost. Many people have, without really deciding on it, become more disconnected from a sense of place, from a sense of self, and from the tiny, visceral, sensory experiences of being present in the world just like Vonnegut describes.<\/p>\n

Ian Bogost is my colleague here at The Atlantic<\/em>, where he writes about technology. He\u2019s an author; a professor and administrator at Washington University in St. Louis; and a game designer. But he\u2019s also one of the keenest observers I\u2019ve ever met: not just of how technology changes us but of all those little quirks that make up our lives.<\/p>\n

And that, coincidentally, is what his new book, The Small Stuff<\/em>, is about. In it, Ian makes the case that some of our societal obsessions\u2014self-optimization, career satisfaction, this constant fixation on whether we are adequately happy or not\u2014those are all aimed at the Big Stuff. But our lives are actually dominated by the Small Stuff: the Vonnegut-style farting around that gives texture to our days. This, he argues, is good news, because the Small Stuff is abundant, and it\u2019s actually much easier to notice, to control. And doing so can bring us a sense of genuine gratification, the kind that so many of our technologies just automate away.<\/p>\n

Now, you may be thinking that this all sounds just a bit nostalgic\u2014a couple of guys lamenting about the good old days. But Ian\u2019s argument in The Small Stuff<\/em> isn\u2019t some screed against technology. It is, however\u2014in a moment where AI is rapidly automating the world\u2014a book about cultivating and strengthening the qualities that make us different than the machines, that bring us joy. That make us human. And so, Ian joins me now to talk about it all.<\/p>\n

[Music<\/em>]<\/strong><\/p>\n

Warzel:<\/strong> Ian, welcome to Galaxy Brain<\/em>.<\/p>\n

Ian Bogost:<\/strong> Thank you so much, Charlie.<\/p>\n

Warzel:<\/strong> So we\u2019re here to talk about the small stuff. You have a book that is all about the small stuff. Can you tell me broadly what is the thesis here of paying attention to the small stuff?<\/p>\n

Bogost:<\/strong> So the idea is that we have become disconnected from our sensory lives. That\u2019s sort of the thesis of the book. And this happened slowly over years and decades. It happened in part because of technology, but not entirely because of technology. And we kind of didn\u2019t notice that that was happening. And we maybe, we blamed smartphones instead of a whole host of other factors. But the result is that we feel disconnected, you know? Like, decoupled from the world that we live in, from the physical world.<\/p>\n

And that connection, that sensory connection where you engage with the world with your senses, which is what I call gratification: We\u2019ve lost a lot of that. We forgot about it. We were too busy optimizing, planning for the future, trying to make our lives more purposeful or happier, that we forgot how to be gratified. And that\u2019s what I think we should reclaim.<\/p>\n

Warzel:<\/strong> You allude to some surveys. There\u2019s a lot of information out about this\u2014<\/p>\n

Bogost: <\/strong>There\u2019s a lot of them.<\/p>\n

Warzel:<\/strong> That we\u2019re in a bit of a \u201chappiness crisis,\u201d but\u2014<\/p>\n

Bogost:<\/strong> \u201cHappiness crisis\u201d is the way that it\u2019s always described, yeah.<\/p>\n

Warzel:<\/strong> Right, yes. Which is a funny thing. I imagine a happiness factory, and there\u2019s just like red alarms going off and like minion-style workers pulling levers.<\/p>\n

Bogost:<\/strong> Yeah, a wrench is in the happiness machine and is no longer able to produce happiness widgets for the masses.<\/p>\n

Warzel:<\/strong> Exactly, which is a crisis by all accounts. Happiness, you also say, is this kind of amorphous thing. And you were just alluding to it there with gratification, but you have happiness, satisfaction, and gratification as these three types of things. Can you walk me through the differences in that?<\/p>\n

Bogost:<\/strong> Yeah, totally. So at a high level, think of happiness as your overall sense of contentment with your life. How things are going, broadly speaking. And it\u2019s usually related to big stuff: to your connection to your family or your spouse or your kids. Your sense of satisfaction at work and whether you feel purpose at work. Whether you\u2019re connected to your community, whether your life means something and is worthwhile. It\u2019s really big stuff.<\/p>\n

It\u2019s also very hard to define. I\u2019m not sure that anyone really knows what happiness is, despite millennia of attempts to define it. And it\u2019s usually kind of like retrospective; like you sort of look back at happiness, or you plan forward for it. Like, How can I be happier? Oh, I need a different job; I need a different wife.<\/em> Whatever it is. So that\u2019s happiness.<\/p>\n

Satisfaction is a little simpler. It\u2019s more like pride in accomplishment. So the satisfaction test is like: You put your hands on your hips, and you look at something you\u2019ve done. And you think, Oh, yeah; that was a good podcast I just recorded.<\/em> That\u2019s satisfaction. And satisfaction is also a big-stuff kind of contentment. So you only feel satisfied when a project was big and worth doing. You know, like you finish a big woodworking project, or you write a book like I just did, or even you make a nice meal and you serve it to your family. And then you feel satisfied.<\/p>\n

Gratification is weirder. It\u2019s much smaller. It\u2019s\u2014I describe it as the sensory enchantment of everyday life. It\u2019s little tiny connections to the world. So the sound of my voice in your ears right now, or the feeling of a warm mug as you hold it in the morning, full of coffee. Or the texture of the shirt on my body when I touch it; the sound of leaves or twigs crunching under my feet when I walk; the feeling of the sun on my skin in the summer. Those are sensory encounters. And gratification is just the sort of connection, the sense of connectivity to the physical world that they deliver, that those encounters deliver.<\/p>\n

Unlike happiness and unlike satisfaction, it happens right away. You either take it, or it\u2019s gone forever. Because it\u2019s instantaneous. It\u2019s in the moment. And they\u2019re usually tiny\u2014like small scale. Because your senses are always receiving information from the world. It\u2019s also\u2014there\u2019s a huge surplus of gratification, unlike happiness or satisfaction. You feel like there\u2019s only a limited amount of it. I better make the right choice. What if I move to the wrong city? What if I work on the wrong project? I\u2019ll miss out.<\/em> But this idea of just being in the world every moment: I think we\u2019ve massively underestimated the power of that.<\/p>\n

Warzel:<\/strong> You argue, though, that gratification\u2014and particularly instant gratification\u2014get a very bad rap. Societally, culturally. Why do you think that is, and why do you disagree with that?<\/p>\n

Bogost:<\/strong> Yeah. I trace this to a series of behavioral-science experiments that began in the late 1960s. A Stanford psychologist named Walter Mischel and some of his colleagues and then successors began running a series of experiments on young children. And they became known as the \u201cmarshmallow-test experiments.\u201d And what they would do is, they would take little kids from the Stanford preschool, and they\u2019d put them in a room. And they\u2019d have a researcher go in and offer them a small treat\u2014usually a marshmallow, but sometimes it was a pretzel or something else\u2014and tell them: You can have this treat now. Or if you wait, then you can have two of them. Or you can have a bigger one. <\/em>And they used this experiment as a way to determine whether individuals with more self-control, or what they perceived to be more self-control, would be more successful in their lives.<\/p>\n

But even, despite what the studies said about any of the individuals who participated, they introduced this idea that gratification is bad. And that instant gratification is indulgence\u2014that it\u2019s kind of like sin, and that it\u2019s associated with addiction-like behaviors. Maybe not addiction writ large, but addiction-like behaviors. So, you know: eating too much, sex, gambling, alcohol, even the marshmallow itself, right? Which is a treat. You shouldn\u2019t have too many treats, should you, right? Like\u2014why don\u2019t you wait? And you can eat something better later.<\/em><\/p>\n

So that whole idea, I think, turned gratification<\/em> into this bad word. And instead of focusing on the moment and what would be pleasurable in the moment, you should always delay. You should always defer. You should always wait \u2019til later. Something better is likely to come along if you withhold that indulgence in order to invest that effort, that time, what have you, in future outcomes. So I think that\u2019s completely wrong.<\/p>\n

Warzel:<\/strong> Well so, we can get into why it is. But the immediate, like\u2014as I\u2019m listening to you talk about all of this\u2014the immediate ideological analogue here is optimization culture, right? That, as you write, kind of splits the world into this binary of \u201cproductive and good\u201d versus \u201cdangerous and indulgent.\u201d Like you said, almost vice-esque. Where does optimization culture fit into the gratification argument?<\/p>\n

Bogost:<\/strong> The forces that have disconnected us from everyday life\u2014I have this name, dematerialization<\/em>, for all of those different forces. Technology, bureaucracy, efficiency, even economic factors: They have been leaning toward optimization and efficiency for years and years and years now. And so we\u2019ve been sort of slowly led to believe, so much that we don\u2019t even realize we\u2019re believing, that all that matters are outcomes. Especially measurable outcomes. And so anything that isn\u2019t focused on a future goal feels like it\u2019s not worth doing, or that it\u2019s less worth doing than something else. And one way to think about the gratification problem is in terms of the difference between goals or outcomes and experiences. Because the experiences are different from the outcomes that they might produce.<\/p>\n

So think about this in, like, really simple terms: You\u2019re cooking dinner. Your goal is to produce a dinner. And you know, maybe you want to do it at a certain cost, or it has to taste a certain way, or you have to feed a certain number of people, or it has to be ready at a certain time. And there\u2019s all sorts of factors that go into it. And you hope it tastes good. You hope people enjoy it and they praise you, all that kind of stuff. But the experience of cooking\u2014of hearing the sizzling onions in the pan, or of chopping up the vegetables, or of opening and closing the refrigerator and feeling the gasket as you do so\u2014all of that stuff, which is really gratifying, that\u2019s the experience of cooking. And it doesn\u2019t make sense to think about it in terms of goals and outcomes that you can optimize. What would it mean to optimize the sound of onions sizzling? That you should like continuously do it? No; that doesn\u2019t make any sense. It\u2019s just a part of the experience.<\/p>\n

And so, because we\u2019re so focused on goals\u2014and so, like, singularly focused on goals and outcomes\u2014optimization culture, efficiency culture plugs right into that idea. Which is also kind of the premise of happiness thinking. You know: Happiness is about future outcomes. It\u2019s about doing things that are worth doing, rather than things that feel good in the moment.<\/em> You\u2019re supposed to set aside those things in order that you can produce a greater sense of purpose and ultimately happiness.<\/p>\n

So you might think of optimization as the sort of like workhead version of happiness, in a way. It\u2019s like happiness, but for outcomes. And for that reason, it\u2019s related to that idea of missing out on what\u2019s happening in the moment in order to produce supposedly better future results. It just doesn\u2019t take much thinking to realize everybody realizes this all the time, right? You\u2019re like: Wait a minute; what am I doing, though? Why am I doing any of these things? What is the experience of doing them? <\/em>And I think that disconnect, which all of us have all the time, is where we start feeling guilty instead of feeling good about the moments that we\u2019re having.<\/p>\n

Warzel:<\/strong> And it\u2019s also just this very like puritanical way of being, right?<\/p>\n

Bogost:<\/strong> Oh, yeah. Totally.<\/p>\n

Warzel:<\/strong> Like, I think so much about all the influencers I see. You know, like they\u2019re not experiencing any of the life. They\u2019re, in a way, just speed-running it to get to the goal, right?<\/p>\n

Bogost:<\/strong> Right. And then the goal only leads to another goal. One of the things that\u2019s been so confusing to me about the whole of, like, Silicon Valley\u2013style success culture and wealth culture is that it never ends. And everyone I know personally or know of who\u2019s been immensely successful in business in the technology industry\u2014which I think is driving a lot of that efficiency discourse that you\u2019re talking about\u2014the moment they achieve massive success, financial success, renown, all of that, it\u2019s just: Well, what\u2019s next? What\u2019s your next play? There has to be more of it.<\/em> They don\u2019t even like open a winery or a distillery or whatever it is. Like, something that\u2019s wasteful, right? It\u2019s like: We\u2019re gonna start up my new venture, invest in another fund, do more, more, more, more, more<\/em>.<\/p>\n

Warzel:<\/strong> Well, this actually happened. There was a thing that went viral the other day of Mark Zuckerberg talking about his farm that he has in Hawaii, where he\u2019s trying to become the absolute best, most efficient farmer. I want the absolute best cows possible.<\/em> And he\u2019s talking about this experience of, you know, the macadamia trees, and all: And that\u2019s what we\u2019re gonna feed them, but then how do we process it so it\u2019s maximally efficient for these cows to eat?<\/em> And the way he\u2019s describing it is in this \u201cefficient\u201d way, where it\u2019s like\u2014this is this guy\u2019s hobby. And yet at the same time, it is just approached with what seems like zero joy. It\u2019s just: I have to get to the maximally efficient outcome.<\/em><\/p>\n

Bogost:<\/strong> No, sure. Totally. Yeah.<\/p>\n

Warzel:<\/strong> I want to talk a little bit about that. The dematerialization thing, and this disconnecting people from the physical world that they inhabit. What does that look like? Like, where do you feel that most acutely?<\/p>\n

Bogost:<\/strong> The example I always go to first\u2014the one that everyone understands immediately\u2014is you go into a public restroom at an airport or a convention center or a hotel or wherever you are. Your office building. And the toilet flushes for you with a sensor, and the faucet turns on, maybe if you\u2019re lucky, with a sensor that you wave your hands under, and the soap is dispensed in a similar way. And when you need to dry your hands, you go and you wave them under another sensor. You\u2019re no longer engaging with those ordinary objects. And that kind of experience\u2014which seems very unimportant. Like, do you really need to flush a toilet, especially in public? What are you telling me? But if you think of those little experiences that you no longer do, you no longer engage in, in the same deep-sensory way that you once did.<\/p>\n

And while they seem tiny and immaterial, maybe, and unimportant and even silly to mention individually\u2014in the aggregate, it all adds up to this sense of decoupling. Of disconnection. Some of them are technologized, you know? During the pandemic, we started scanning QR codes at restaurants so that we\u2019d not have to touch stuff. And now, like most menus, or large number of menus, at restaurants are just QR codes. And now you don\u2019t get to touch that kind of thing anymore. That\u2019s not a part of your life any longer. You know, so there is sort of a giant pile of stuff like that, right?<\/p>\n

Warzel:<\/strong> Yeah. Well, what\u2019s interesting too\u2014like, just to use the QR-code one as an example\u2014is the daisy-chain effect that happens with that, right? Where it\u2019s not just like, Yeah, it can be annoying<\/em>, or I\u2019m used to having a menu; I like the tactile feel of the menu<\/em>. There\u2019s all that. But the QR code replaces the need for someone to come to the table and say, \u201cHey, what do you want?\u201d Because you\u2019re ordering through the app, and then, with that you\u2019ve lost that one interaction there. And then that continues to daisy-chain throughout the thing.<\/p>\n

Bogost:<\/strong> And after a while you\u2019re like, Why, I don\u2019t need that. I clearly didn\u2019t need that. It\u2019s much more efficient to do it that way. So that must have been valueless the whole time.<\/em> But it wasn\u2019t.<\/p>\n

Warzel:<\/strong> Right. And you make another argument with remote work that\u2019s kind of similar, that I\u2019d like to hear more about. Partially because I wrote a book about remote work a while back.<\/p>\n

Bogost:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n

Warzel:<\/strong> But this idea, that the sameness of knowledge work is part of the reason why people don\u2019t feel that pull to go in the office, right? I\u2019m clacking on a keyboard doing the same thing there that I would be doing in my office with headphones on.<\/em> Can you elaborate more on that, and how that\u2019s just like that \u201csameness\u201d element, and how that\u2019s affecting how we move about the world?<\/p>\n

Bogost:<\/strong> Yeah. So there\u2019s a category of workers, of white-collar workers, that I talk about in the book that are called professionals<\/em>. We used to call them professionals. I know a professional<\/em> just kind of means a white-collar worker now, but it used to mean someone who had to get, like, certification\u2014like an architect or a doctor or a lawyer. And that\u2019s an interesting class to look at, because those people typically also had work lives that involved being in particular places. Maybe they had an office, but the doctor\u2019s also in the clinic or the hospital or moving from exam room to exam room. And the lawyer may have to go to a different office to do a deposition, or they have to go to court. And the architect has to be on a job site, for example, wearing their hard hat. Like you would see in a stock image or something like that. And even a journalist, right? Like, would have to be on site: reporting, talking to people, being in another space. tThat wasn\u2019t just them at their computer, making phone calls or sending emails.<\/p>\n

And as more and more of those kinds of jobs that used to be really bound to specific places, in addition to the general like white-collar worker who\u2019s in office, you know, \u201cemail jobs,\u201d as we call them now. Everyone got to the point where they didn\u2019t choose not to do that. And it wasn\u2019t just because of work from home, COVID stuff. It was that all sorts of factors. Economics, in terms of it was much easier to just be on Zoom instead of going places.<\/p>\n

That sort of stole away from us the ability to do all the stuff that comes with those kinds of movements through space and time that don\u2019t have anything to do with your job. If you were a court reporter or you were an attorney, and you ended up in the same courtroom or a series of different courtrooms. And you know, like, which one had the best coffee at the little coffee-vending machine, and then you get to press the button on the vending machine. Or go down a certain kind of stairway that had a certain feeling when you wore your heels against it. All of that gratifying experience of just moving in and being in the world has nothing to do with your job, actually. Nothing to do with your work, but through which you derive contentment. That just evaporates.<\/p>\n

And I think because of all of those factors\u2014some, not all\u2014but some of the sense that we have of our work being meaningless, of not knowing why we\u2019re doing it or not knowing why we\u2019re doing it in an office versus at home, is that we don\u2019t know that we lost that. We haven\u2019t thought about that as a loss. Even in a normal office, you know, you\u2019ll hear line workers saying, Well, management just wants us here so they can control us<\/em>. Right? Or because it\u2019s easier to manage, you know, if we\u2019re all in one place. <\/em><\/p>\n

But the truth is that all that weird stuff that happens when you\u2019re getting a Diet Coke, or you\u2019re getting coffee, or you\u2019re, you know, stumbling to lunch together, or you run into someone in the elevator\u2014those kinds of experiences don\u2019t just produce more efficient or better work, although they might. They\u2019re also experiences of connectivity with your colleagues, with other people, with other materials in the world.<\/p>\n

And you see, Charlie\u2019s got this, you know, interesting kind of plum-colored shirt on today. That\u2019s nice. So it looks like a nice texture. Where did you get that shirt, Charlie? Actually, what did you do this weekend? And I got this shirt. You have this\u2014you see someone\u2019s eyes, and you see that, you hear their voice, and you\u2019re just engaged with them in a different way. You smell the cologne or perfume that they\u2019re wearing. You see the way that they walk to and from. You kind of feel their physical presence nearby you. All that stuff isn\u2019t just about, like, being more efficient or productive. It\u2019s also about being more alive in the world.<\/p>\n

And so I think one of the reasons why our work feels just so stripped of meaning isn\u2019t just because the work itself is meaningless. Or isn\u2019t because, like, They\u2019re making me do it in the office, and I\u2019ve got to trundle to work. You know, gotta get in the car, I gotta get in the subway.<\/em> It\u2019s also because we stopped expecting those kinds of\u2014we stopped looking for those kinds of experiences, even when we\u2019re having them. And nowadays, you can go into an office and it\u2019s just: Everybody\u2019s just in their headphones. Just alone, you know? They\u2019re not engaged with it anymore, because they kind of forgot that it was a part of their lives in the first place.<\/p>\n

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And I guess one thing I want to say here is, this kind of dematerialization effect\u2014it\u2019s not your fault. Like, you didn\u2019t choose this. Nobody decided: You know what, I want to have a more efficient life. And so I no longer want to know what my colleagues are wearing, in order that I might see the colors of their garments.<\/em> No one chose any of that. It happened slowly, and it happened in ways that we didn\u2019t really have a say in.<\/p>\n

Warzel:<\/strong> Well, and the thing. I think some people might hear you talk about this and immediately their mind will go to: Well, I don\u2019t wanna make work my entire life. I don\u2019t wanna make this my\u2014you know, I like the fact that it\u2019s completely decoupled.<\/em> But I think what you\u2019re actually talking about in the journalism example, you know, is one that I\u2019ve actually thought about quite a bit. And I think it\u2019s the same for a lot of different professions. But in journalism it actually, it has a different valence. You know, we have this erosion of local news in the world, right?<\/p>\n

Bogost:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n

Warzel:<\/strong> And as part of that, there\u2019s a lot fewer journalists who are going around in communities, right, in small-town communities. There\u2019s a lot of national journalists who will parachute into places, you know, like ourselves or whatnot. And something I\u2019ve thought about, living in various small towns across America throughout my life, is that some of those people now have such resentment of the media. For reasons good or bad, or whatnot, in part because they don\u2019t have any relationship to these types of people, right? If I\u2019m just calling it, if I\u2019m not in the world doing my job\u2014in the world with other people, having the mundane experiences, right? Like, someone kinda cut in front of me in line to get into the courtroom. And I\u2019m like, No worries. Go ahead, you know<\/em>. And someone goes, Wow, that\u2019s like; thanks.<\/em> That\u2019s gracious, right? And just clocks something tiny, like that.<\/p>\n

Just these interactions that mean \u201cnothing.\u201d Those are the things that build these\u2014they don\u2019t just make us happy too, but they build these other, like, societal bonds, right? They just link us in ways large and small. But that lack of gratification, broadly speaking, has this effect of kind of making us more distrustful, more suspicious of other people. Because we have less of those humanizing interactions.<\/p>\n

Bogost:<\/strong> Yeah; one of the ways I think about gratification is as like a foundation. If you think about it as foundational. So it seems unimportant, because it\u2019s made of these little tiny bits. And it\u2019s easy to discount and discard it. But what you\u2019re saying is something related\u2014which is that just being human, like being a part of the world, a full member of society, also means being in it physically with other things and with other people.<\/p>\n

And the less that we do that, or the more that we scorn doing it, or the more that we think that it\u2019s kind of unimportant, because it would be much more efficient if I just got online to do it that way instead, or we just send a reporter into your small town to go to the local diner and pretend like they care about the people that they\u2019re talking to, right? Or whatever the joke is about how national reporters work. That then, we can just get the information, you know, like: Let\u2019s just get the story and then get back out again.<\/em> When what you miss in that experience is the experience. You know, what is it like to be in this place? What does the air feel like?<\/p>\n

And I don\u2019t know about you, but when I do this work as a journalist, when I go somewhere, it radically changes the story, right? It\u2019s a completely different experience, because you\u2019re engaged with the world in a holistic way. And that\u2019s just irreplaceable, in a way. You just, you can\u2019t end-run around it. You can\u2019t pursue efficiency in order to excise it, because the experience matters fundamentally.<\/p>\n

Warzel:<\/strong> You write that \u201ctechnology has allowed personal intimacy and connection to flourish too much<\/em>, and anywhere.\u201d That struck me just as a sentence. But also because there is a way in which someone can read that, say that feels a little counterintuitive to your argument. So draw that out for me. Tell me a little bit more what you mean: Technology has allowed intimacy and connection to flourish too much and anywhere.<\/p>\n

Bogost:<\/strong> Maybe the best way to sort of put a pin on it is\u2014you know how at some point in the last 15 years, everybody you know, you can\u2019t make plans with anymore. Where it\u2019s like, Well, we\u2019ll see.<\/em> And everyone\u2019s kind of waiting for something better to come along. And you\u2019re like, Yeah, no, I\u2019ll come out tonight. <\/em>And then, I\u2019m sorry, like I just can\u2019t make it. I\u2019m tired. <\/em>Or I\u2019m sick.<\/em> When really it\u2019s: I don\u2019t really feel like doing it<\/em>, or There\u2019s this other thing<\/em>, or even just I am watching Netflix instead<\/em>. Because there\u2019s an enormous surplus of information online. We have too many choices and too many options.<\/p>\n

I\u2019ve written about this before for The Atlantic<\/em>. You know, the sense that before the smartphone, we were pretty bored actually. Like, there wasn\u2019t as much to do. And you would like read the back of like, you know, whatever magazine was at the dentist\u2019s office or look at shampoo bottles or watch the clock spin. And that felt soul-destroying at the time, but it also engaged you more deeply with everything that was kind of outside of your head.<\/p>\n

And now we live in this world of symbols, all the time, that we can generate and we can exchange. And I think that that gave us the sense that we\u2014it\u2019s sort of like we don\u2019t need our physical bodies. Like, anything I want is in infospace. I can consume it as an idea. I can create it as an idea. And this is, to some extent, where like the singular singularitarian dream comes from. I can just upload my brain, and it doesn\u2019t matter that I have a body anymore. Because I can discard it and be the same person that I actually am. Because all that matters is my connection to information, like the most extreme version of it. But we kind of believe it on an ordinary day-to-day level too.<\/p>\n

And it\u2019s just wrong. And you know it\u2019s wrong anytime you have a real earnest encounter with a person, or you\u2019re speaking to someone across a counter, and it\u2019s just you and them. And maybe you\u2019re even having dispute, and you\u2019re trying to resolve it, and you\u2019re looking into their eyes\u2014and they\u2019re another human being and not just an account with an anime icon. And it forces you to live in a different headspace because you\u2019re in a different physical space. So like, the way that technology has changed us isn\u2019t just about the extent to which we use it. That\u2019s what you normally think: I\u2019m just using this too much<\/em>. But it\u2019s also that we use it differently. We live our lives differently because of it.<\/p>\n

Warzel:<\/strong> I kind of agree with you here. But also there\u2019s an element that some people may uncharitably read as, you know, wanting the good old days back, right? So if someone\u2019s gonna approach you about the small-stuff argument and say, Yes, as you said, so much of this is frivolous, but it\u2019s also just\u2014it\u2019s not coming back<\/em>. I don\u2019t know, how do you approach that person?<\/p>\n

Bogost:<\/strong> Yeah, right. There is a counter-response to this force, this force of dematerialization that\u2019s been going on for a little while, that sort of reads as nostalgia. Like the drive to kind of analog culture. Or we\u2019re gonna try to reclaim\u2014I\u2019m gonna have a dumb phone now instead of a smartphone, or I\u2019m gonna spin vinyl. That drive comes from the same problem that I\u2019m at, that I call dematerialization. But instead of moving forward, what it does is say: We have to go back again. And we\u2019ll try to reclaim these little bits that are available to us.<\/em> That\u2019s the nostalgia version.<\/p>\n

The \u201cfriction-maxxing\u201d version, I think, is equally wrong in a different way. What it\u2019s saying is, like\u2014if the problem is efficiency, if everything got too smooth and easy, then we should make it hard again. And that\u2019s even weirder as a conclusion to come to, because the thing about gratification that\u2019s so striking to me is how easy it is. It\u2019s not hard at all, or it doesn\u2019t have to be.<\/p>\n

So the answer to the question is that we can\u2019t go back. You\u2019re right. But we don\u2019t have to.<\/p>\n

This has been the hardest thing to get across and to try to convince people of, as I\u2019ve been working on this project\u2014that there\u2019s an enormous surplus of sensory life that\u2019s constantly available and happening all the time. Because we believe that we\u2019ve lost it or that someone has taken it from us. Or that we\u2019re siphoning it into our smartphones, or that we used to have it, but now my job is too terrible, or I can\u2019t own a home anymore.<\/p>\n

And those things are all true\u2014but you\u2019re still a body in the world, and you\u2019re still engaged with that world at every moment of every day of your life. So that\u2019s a very different way of approaching the reclamation of this loss than, like, trying to lament the past or trying to invent new technologized and kind of efficiency-driven ways of procuring it in the future.<\/p>\n

Warzel:<\/strong> I am someone who struggles pretty hard with ambition, being in my own head, constantly focusing on what you\u2019re calling the big stuff, right? I have a big-stuff-focused brain.<\/p>\n

Bogost:<\/strong> Yeah, I think a lot of us do.<\/p>\n

Warzel:<\/strong> Which also means that I\u2019m constantly trying to do the opposite, right? I\u2019m trying to do the work of focusing on gratitude, of being more present in moments to keep the other stuff at bay. And when I start doing it, I have this sensation that I\u2019ll be walking down the street, and it\u2019s a really nice day, and I hear the birds all of a sudden, right? Or I see a great cloud. And it brings me this level of what you will call gratification. But the sensation is small. I\u2019m not overwhelmed by it, right?<\/p>\n

And then the big-stuff part of my brain just takes over, and it goes: That\u2019s it? That\u2019s the \u201csolution?\u201d<\/em> And this then just triggers the big-stuff brain to just start worrying away, with these promises of like: No, no; there\u2019s a stronger satisfaction. If you make this, you know, jump in your career, if you do this thing, like that\u2019s going to be the kind of satisfaction that makes your knees buckle.<\/em> How do you square that and the small feeling of it with the promise that the big brain offers?<\/p>\n

Bogost:<\/strong> I\u2019m gonna give you the galaxy-brain answer to this question, which is that you can have both. I\u2019m not asking you to choose between ambition or purpose, or even happiness and gratification\u2014but to recognize that what are you gonna do instead of taking in that smell of the salty surf? Like, what would happen instead? What would you lose if you didn\u2019t? All that you\u2019d lose is that gratifying experience of having done so.<\/p>\n

You can keep on advancing in your career and trying to solve the problems in your marriage and trying to improve the lives of your children and trying to connect with your community through volunteership. Or whatever it is that you think will make you happy and give you purpose. You can keep doing that, and you can also feel the sand between your toes. Right. And you know, when I say this, it\u2019s like: Of course, duh. Like obviously. You can do that.<\/em><\/p>\n

And yet, we\u2019ve still kind of forgotten it, haven\u2019t we? Or we feel guilty about it in the way that you\u2019re describing. Or maybe it\u2019s not even guilt\u2014maybe it\u2019s a sense of habit, or a sense that even that little shard of mental space that\u2019s processing my senses would be better spent planning my app, or whatever it is that you do for a living.<\/p>\n

Warzel:<\/strong> Right, right. We\u2019re talking a lot about the embodied nature of things and paying attention to our bodies. And I wonder if you ever think about this book, and the arguments, in some ways as a kind of handbook for cultivating the things that make us different than the machines. Because some of the debates that we\u2019re having over artificial intelligence and superintelligence\u2014and the differences between machines simulating human consciousness and human consciousness\u2014is that we\u2019re the ones that have the bodies. We\u2019re in meatspace. We know what it feels like to get a sunburn. We know what it feels like to be caught in the rain.<\/p>\n

Do you think about that as it relates to a future where we\u2019re going to be interacting a lot with things that simulate human intelligence or consciousness, but they\u2019re not embodied?<\/p>\n

Bogost:<\/strong> Right. They simulate a certain kind of human intelligence that\u2019s decoupled from embodiment. Here\u2019s the weirdest thing, though, to me. The way that AI is pushing people, and maybe I\u2019ll just speak for myself, the way it\u2019s pushing me back into the physical world as much as it is continuing to undermine that connection to it. A lot of the work that I do with AI is me asking questions that then force me to do things with my hands, you know?<\/p>\n

Warzel:<\/strong> Really?<\/p>\n

Bogost:<\/strong> Yeah, like I\u2019ll give you an example. I have a new kitchen counter getting installed this week. Okay. And the stone guys, they had to move the range, and they knocked off the knob for the oven control. And because of the way my range is built, that means like a whole replacement of this whole thermostat assembly, because it was like just a piece of zinc that broke off.<\/p>\n

And, you know, in the past I would have been like angry at the workers, or I would have been calling up, you know, my contractor or the appliance-repair people. And now I\u2019m like: I mean, I wonder what part this is. I bet the chat can tell me, and it can tell me.<\/em> And, you know, like how would I repair this if I wanted? You could go to YouTube and do that for you, but it\u2019s something different. Like, I\u2019ll take a picture and I\u2019ll show you. I see which one you have. <\/em><\/p>\n

And you know, it\u2019s trying to use what it can do as an information system in order to sort of push me, by invitation, to reengage with part of the physical world that was available to me the whole time\u2014but that I had determined wasn\u2019t something that I knew how to engage with anymore. And I\u2019ve had like just dozens, maybe hundreds of those kinds of experiences over the past couple of years. That aren\u2019t about, like, automating my work or stealing the experience of doing whatever it is I might be doing, communicating with other people, right? All the stuff people are worried about. But are more about reminding me that that world is out there. It\u2019s available to me.<\/p>\n

And so in that way, I\u2019m encouraged that this\u2014almost like this dialectic of the info space and the physical space might still be traversable. That we might be able to move between them more readily and with greater fluency. There\u2019s some future of the AI thing that looks like that\u2014and not where it steals all of our work and all of our connectivity with ourselves and with the world. I don\u2019t know if we\u2019ll be able to achieve that, but I certainly think there are signs that we could steer it in that direction.<\/p>\n

Warzel:<\/strong> When I think about that, I think that there\u2019s a good point there. Which is when you\u2019re asking these types of machines, a computer that is truly interactive. Like, I can ask a follow-up question to computer, and computer can figure this thing out. That to me, when it\u2019s pointed towards the physical world: How do I fix this? How do I do this?<\/em> You know, that seems to me to be very true. The concern is that so much of it also is like an accelerator for all of these other systems that push us into the disembodied zone, right?<\/p>\n

Bogost:<\/strong> There\u2019s no question.<\/p>\n

Warzel:<\/strong> It makes all of the things that make the knowledge work and the computerized bureaucracy bad. It\u2019s just like\u2014it\u2019s a particle-accelerator situation for that.<\/p>\n

But I wanna kinda land the plane here and just talk about practical solutions. We have stop and feel the sand between your toes. We have those types of things, which I\u2019m not discounting at all. Give me some things that people can do to help the small stuff feel more present in their lives.<\/p>\n

Bogost:<\/strong> One of the easiest things is just to talk about it, to give it voice. I think this sense of ridiculousness or embarrassment or smallness that \u201cthe small stuff\u201d embodies, it makes it feel weird. I have a section of the book where I talk about peeling protective film off of products that come with it. And this is the kind of thing where I\u2019m like: If I told anyone in the world, Hey, you know how, like, really gratifying it is to peel that protective film off?<\/em> It\u2019d be like, My gosh, you\u2019re totally right<\/em>. Right? But it doesn\u2019t\u2014you\u2019re not willing to take the first step, to take the leap into believing that and just talking about it.<\/p>\n

Just saying, you know: Here\u2019s a gratifying experience that I\u2019m having right now, and you\u2019re having with me, and let\u2019s just vocalize it.<\/em> That does a lot. It normalizes it. It\u2019s really simple, too. It doesn\u2019t require that much work, and you can do it every day.<\/p>\n

Another one is\u2014I talk extensively about the internet. And the internet isn\u2019t bad. It\u2019s not like: \u201cPut your phone down, get off of the internet.\u201d There\u2019s a lot of kind of vicarious gratification that the internet has to offer. And we\u2019ve talked a little bit about it with those repair videos, the like TikTok drain-clearing videos I\u2019m obsessed with. The way that like ASMR YouTubers pay attention to towels and garments and bottles, and those sorts of things. That\u2019s not an end in itself. But it is, again, a way of being introduced to this idea of being reminded that the sensory world is interesting and meaningful.<\/p>\n

Another technique I think is really useful is do something that\u2019s physically different that involves a different kind of sensory life than your norm. And that might mean that like, if you work at a computer all day, then do something different with your hands. Make something, go garden, but treat it as a true hobby. And the hobby, it doesn\u2019t need to be related to the outcome: like having a good garden or knitting sweaters that you can sell or give away or what have you. It\u2019s really just about a different sensory activity than the one that you experience in your ordinary life. That\u2019s another thing you can do. Just introduce a diversity of sensory experiences as much as you can.<\/p>\n

And I think one more thing that I\u2019ll throw out there is: Just take it. Just stop worrying so much about whether this stuff is good, or it\u2019s gonna, you know, prevent you from accessing some future version of yourself that\u2019s even better. The more that you know that these gifts are just here. These sensory gifts are available, if you accept them. The more you kind of exercise that mentality and carry it out, then the more familiar and comfortable you will be with it.<\/p>\n

I know this sounds ridiculous, maybe, and it also sounds harder than it really is. But the sense of like, we say this all the time: Oh, it\u2019s a nice breeze that I\u2019m feeling today. It\u2019s quite warm today. It\u2019s really chilly. That tastes a little different than I expected; there\u2019s a little more dill in that than I anticipated when I put it in my mouth. <\/em><\/p>\n

All of that\u2014that\u2019s exactly, that\u2019s it. That\u2019s all the stuff you\u2019re already doing. But then just surfacing it and not worrying so much about whether it\u2019s weird, or whether you\u2019re cheating yourself out of some future version of yourself in order to encounter it. When really what you\u2019re losing if you don\u2019t is the experience of living in the moment.<\/p>\n

Warzel:<\/strong> I think that\u2019s an excellent, excellent place to leave everything. This is all, I think, really beautiful. And thank you for sharing it. I really appreciate it.<\/p>\n

Bogost:<\/strong> Yeah. It\u2019s so fun to talk positively about the world, you know, as a technology critic. To be like: You know what? It\u2019s actually okay.<\/em> So thank you so much for talking to me about it.<\/p>\n

[Music<\/em>]<\/strong><\/p>\n

Warzel: <\/strong>That\u2019s it for us here. Thank you again to my guest, Ian Bogost. If you liked what you saw here, new episodes of Galaxy Brain<\/em> drop every Friday. You can subscribe on The Atlantic<\/em>\u2019s YouTube channel, or on Apple or Spotify or wherever it is that you get your podcasts. And if you want to support this work and the work of my fellow journalists, you can subscribe to the publication at TheAtlantic.com\/Listener. That\u2019s TheAtlantic.com\/Listener. Thanks so much, and I\u2019ll see you on the internet.<\/p>\n

This episode of Galaxy Brain<\/em> was produced by Renee Klahr and engineered by Miguel Carrascal. Our theme is by Rob Smierciak. Hadley Robinson is our senior supervising producer. Claudine Ebeid is the executive producer of Atlantic<\/em> audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.<\/p>\n

Read more The Rosenberg Boys<\/a><\/p>\n<\/section>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

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